Interview with Obama on school reform

This is from interviews Barack Obama did in 2002 and 2003, when he was running for U.S. Senate, with Jeff Berkowitz, host of  "Public Affairs," a cable talk show.  I like the support of charters and competition, though he runs far and fast from vouchers

Last time, you said you will do anything that improves the [school] situation and you were open to school vouchers. Did I get that right?

Obama: What I said was--I think that we have to consider every possibility of improving what admittedly is an intolerable school system for a lot of inner-city kids. I do not believe in vouchers. I am a strong supporter of charter schools, as you know. I think that we do have to innovate and experiment to encourage competition in the school systems.

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Berkowitz: Is education important to the African- American community?

Obama: Education is very important to the African- American Community.

Berkowitz: How do you differentiate yourself from the other candidates on Education?

Obama: You know, I don't know enough about the other candidates to know--

Berkowitz: Speak to me as if I were a part of your base in the City of Chicago. Speak to me as if I were a parent with two kids in the Chicago Public Schools ("CPS"). (As you know, one out of every two schools in the CPS is labeled as a failing school). Speak to me as if I am an African-American and my income is $30,000. What are you going to do for me [about education].

Obama: Here is my only question, Jeff. Am I going to have to talk about [school] vouchers right now?

Berkowitz: You have to do it for a minute or two.

Obama: How much time do we have?

Berkowitz: Two minutes.

Obama: Can't we put the old tape [of our prior voucher discussion] on?

Berkowitz: Well, your views might have changed. Last time, you said you will do anything that improves the [school] situation and you were open to school vouchers. Did I get that right?

Obama: What I said was--I think that we have to consider every possibility of improving what admittedly is an intolerable school system for a lot of inner-city kids. I do not believe in vouchers. I am a strong supporter of charter schools, as you know. I think that we do have to innovate and experiment to encourage competition in the school systems. I also think that at the federal level (because most of these issues are state level issues)--at the federal level the most important thing that we could be doing, and you don't need to pull out your props--with the vouchers

Berkowitz: Hey, you have to do it. Everybody has to do it. Here is my [school voucher] backpack, right here.

Obama: I have done the backpack thing, Jeff

Berkowitz: But, you haven't done it as a Senate candidate. Here it is. It has changed now. We are now spending about $9,000 [per kid per year operating cost in the CPS]. It went up from $8,000 [per year per kid]. Here is the [school voucher] backpack. I am the parent. I am serious. I want to know. Barack Obama, could you give me that backpack? That is, $9,000 for each kid [of mine.] $18,000 that I could spend at a school [of my choice for my two kids]. You don't want to do that for me?

Obama: Jeff, Jeff

Berkowitz: [Berkowitz offers the school voucher backpack to Obama]. You don't want to take that backpack? I didn't think so.

Obama: We are going to get in this debate again. As I have said before, I believe that the voucher program is, although I believe that there are very sincere proponents like yourself, I think that the ultimate result of initiating a voucher program ends up being to, over time, not foster competition, but, in fact, to reduce the options available particularly for the hardest to reach kids because a private market system will not ultimately try to reach the toughest to teach kids. That's a debate that we have had before. What I do know is at the federal level what we can do on the education front is make sure that programs like "Leave no child behind," actually don't leave the money behind, which is what's happened with [President] George Bush.

Berkowitz: Well, that [No Child Left Behind] doesn't give choice. You and I agree on that?

Obama: That I certainly agree with. I think the notion that somehow these kids now have options if they are in failing schools when in fact they don't -

Berkowitz: [Holding up the $18,000 voucher backpack for two kids]. This is an option: $18,000. It is $18,000; School of your choice.

Obama: It is not true. Because the kids on the South Side of Chicago; the kids in King High School, or in Crane, or in other of these schools will not end up going to New Trier High School.

Berkowitz: They don't have to. They just need to go to a BETTER school [than their current one] and eventually there will be a New Trier. But it doesn't have to be New Trier overnight.

Obama: Jeff, eventually is not true. We can look at examples of -

Berkowitz: Look at where they are now. Why do you compare it with New Trier. I just want to teach kids how to read.

Obama: What I am going to compare it to, a voucher system that we already have in operation, which is the public housing system where we have a terrific voucher system called Section 8 and what has happened?

Berkowitz: No, it is not a terrific system.

Obama: Exactly, and the reason it is not terrific--

Berkowitz: is not because it is a voucher system. It is because it is not set up right. We could set it up right. A fully funded voucher [system] for education.

Obama: But the point is--

Berkowitz: Last time you said you might consider it [a school voucher system]. You are not going to consider it this time; that's a change...

June 27, 2002
Obama: There is no reason why the market won't necessarily replicate the same imbalances that currently exist with respect to per pupil spending and performance. Now, having said all of that, I think this is a legitimate area for debate and I think it is going to be something that is going to be debated at the state level and the national level for many years to come and I look forward to the debate, and I am also willing to say that I am not close minded on this issue so I think everybody should go into this with the basic attitude that the bottom line is--how are we providing the most effective education for students at every grade level and every economic strata, and if we are doing that, then we shouldn't be didactic or ideological about how to best deliver that.

Berkowitz: So, I take that to mean that under the right circumstances you, Barack Obama, possible U. S. Senate Candidate from the State of Illinois, could support school vouchers and could even do so in your role as a state senator in the Illinois Legislature.

Obama: No, what you can take that to mean is that I am willing to listen to these arguments and see if there-- If I can be persuaded that ultimately kids would be better off, then--

Berkowitz: Then you would support it.

Obama: I would support anything that is going to be better off for the children of Illinois.

Berkowitz: Including school vouchers, if you are persuaded?

Obama: Whatever is on the table I think has to be debated.

Berkowitz: Quite a concession. I am going to quit while I am ahead.