Our next email discussion was on closing schools. Here are my thoughts (full exchange below):

Our next email discussion was on closing schools.  Here are my thoughts (full exchange below):

 

This email provides real insight into your thinking and how vastly different our approaches and thinking are -- these lines in particular:  "It is the 'Death Penalty' of school reform and, like the actual death penalty, I am against it in all cases...Knowing that this is what will happen to the 22 schools...truly made me sick to my stomach.  I lost sleep about it, and I get sad every time I think about it."

 

I, too, oppose the death penalty, not on moral grounds, but because of the imperfect nature of our judicial system.  If even one innocent person was put to death, but 99 guilty murderers were executed, that would be too high of an error rate for me (and of course that actual error rate is massively higher).

 

So, then, why don't I apply the same thinking to closing schools?  Because what I care about is the kids -- and I don't blame them (or their parents) when they can't read properly by age 10 (or 12 or 14 or 16...) -- I blame the adults whose job it is to educate them.  I KNOW with 100% certainty, because I've seen it hundreds of times personally, that great teachers and great schools can teach virtually every child to at least a basic level -- maybe far from 90/90/90 (since when did that become the litmus test?), but to a decent level so that the vast majority of children have some chance in life.

 

I'd estimate that 25% of the schools in NYC -- roughly 400 schools -- are failing this basic test and should be shut down/reconstituted.  So, there you have it: of the approximately 1,600 public schools in NYC, you'd shut down/reconstitute ZERO and my number is 400 -- you could drive a truck through that gap!  Not all at once, of course -- it would take at least a decade, starting with the worst schools, the ones filled with mostly mediocre-to-truly-incompetent adults, where virtually no learning whatsoever is going on.  (I still don't understand your viewpoint, by the way: do you deny that such schools exist, or just that one can't identify them, or that even if you can, that the replacement is probably just as bad, so why cause any disruption -- just leave them alone?)

 

I'm sure you'll reply that closing such a large number of schools -- in fact, even a tiny fraction of this number -- will result in some schools being closed -- and some teachers and other adults losing their jobs -- unfairly.  In fact, this number -- the error rate -- might be quite high.  I agree -- in fact, it's probably one of the few things we'll ever agree on!  It's just that our reactions are different.  You feel "sick to your stomach, lose sleep and get sad thinking about" the injustice of a school being wrongfully closed down.  I don't.  I'm not happy about it, but my distress level is maybe a 5 out of 10, whereas yours appears to be a 9.5. 

 

Why am I less upset?  Because I don't think it's the end of the world if the adults have to find new jobs.  Since when are teachers the only working people in America who never have the risk that they work for a company or factory that has layoffs or gets shut down?  I'm sure there are lots of money-losing companies or factories that have wonderful, productive, effective people in them, and it's truly sad when those people lose their jobs due to the incompetence of management or their fellow employees, but that's the unfortunate breaks that some people get.  Not to minimize the trauma/disruption of anyone losing their job, especially due to no fault of their own, but almost all truly effective people are able to find another good job.  I know for sure that great teachers are in VERY high demand -- in fact, finding them is KIPP's single biggest constraint on its growth.  In summary, I'm not too worried about the adults whose lives are disrupted when a school is closed/reconstituted.

 

But what about the kids?  I'm more concerned about them, but they're the ones being victimized by the terrible schools -- it's like when you're on the bottom rung of a ladder, it's hard to get hurt if you fall off (or the ladder is pulled out from under you).  If the methodology to determine the schools to be closed has even the tiniest bit of common sense -- unlike you, I don't think it's the slightest bit difficult to identify the truly horrific bottom 5-10% of schools, as a starting point -- then it's almost certain that the vast majority of kids have nowhere to go but up.

-------------------------------------------------

FULL EXCHANGE:

Email discussion with Gary Rubenstein about closing/reconstituting schools

 

My email: > One major point of disagreement

> between us is under what circumstances a school should be closed/shut

> down/reconstituted, defined as either more than half of the adults

> leaving (what's required under one option of NCLB, and what was going

> to happen to Central Falls HS in RI), or truly closing the school and

> turning the space over to often multiple operators (the most common

> model in NYC under Klein).

>

> I laid out my general principles in one of my emails/blog posts about

> Central Falls HS (and in my em about the lamp/bulb analogy).  I do NOT

> believe it should be entirely driven by test scores -- I believe test

> data, measuring student GAINS (not absolute performance), should be

> maybe 40-50% of the weighting in an evaluation of a school (or

> individual teacher), with the rest being many other objective

> (graduation and dropout rates, violent

> incidents) and subjective factors (in-person assessments, the

> existence of a realistic plan for improvement, etc.).

>

> What are your criteria?  Can you point to a single school anywhere in

> the country that you think should be (or should have been) shut

> down/reconstituted?  Not Central Falls?  Not even ONE of the nearly 40

> schools in NYC that the DOE has tried to close in the past two years?

> Not Locke, which before Green Dot was perhaps the most notorious HS in

> America, where there was literally a race riot between black and

> Latino students? (read Stray Dogs...

> For the details)

 

Gary's reply: Hi Whitney,

 

Great question.  One thing I can answer without hesitation is the NYC Klein model should never happen, in my opinion.  It is the 'Death Penalty' of school reform and, like the actual death penalty, I am against it in all cases (even for Bin Laden -- this is a topic for another debate, if you'd like.)  Just like the actual death penalty, I'm opposed the NYC style closings because they are irreversible, unfairly affect the poor (yes, the poorer of the poor get shuffled elsewhere, so don't argue that they help the poor), and do not serve as a deterrent for others.  Knowing that this is what will happen to the 22 schools in the recent judgment that the people at Tweed drank so merrily to, truly made me sick to my stomach.  I lost sleep about it, and I get sad every time I think about it.  The problem with the Klein style is when the kids are shuffled, it is really hard to determine if the charters that replaced the big school were serving the 'same children  in the same building' (to quote Duncan on Urban Prep.  How can an all-boys school be the 'same children' as the old co-ed school?)

 

Now, the other model, particularly now that I've learned about Locke -- thanks for getting that exchange with Marco happening -- I'm warmer to that.  I think that in the majority of cases, the reconstitution does not do much good.  Didn't do much for Miami Central, despite praise from Obama -- it will be charterized by next year.  (Do you want to help me get the word 'charterized' copyrighted?)  But the Locke story, well that sounds like an example where this Green Dot had an actual plan to keep the kids in the same building and offer support and a better leader and a better staff.  It seems to have worked, so maybe it can work elsewhere.  This was what Ravitch had in mind when she supported charters.  And you're right that she would praise Locke, as a charter that is not creaming or winning by attrition.  However, if a politician ever tried to use Locke to prove that 90-90-90 schools are out there, she would certainly point to their low test scores as a  way to call the politician out on his lies.  It would be a slam on the politician, not on the school.  Listen to the opening of the Ravitch/Alter debate on Denver radio -- particularly her opening comments.  (I felt Alter humiliated himself.  Maybe you heard something different than me.  It's human nature to hear and believe what we want to hear and believe.)

 

I will be interested in how politicians speak about Locke.  If they are honest about the slow, but steady progress they are making, I'd like that.  If they choose to only focus on one metric that they are doing well with (i.e. Urban Preps 107 out of 107 getting into college), then Locke will, unfortunately become a pseudo-miracle school and could earn a spot on my miracleschools.wikispaces.com site.  It's not a 90-90-90 school, probably never will be one, not (to quote Seinfeld) that there's anything wrong with that.

 

I am going to read your Central Falls posts.  I suppose that there could be some criteria for getting a new staff, particularly if it is a staff of 'ringers'.  I'm not sure what criteria New York City uses.  Whatever they use, they are a bit too eager to shut down schools.  I know you are not a fan (to say the least) of Ravitch, but her blog post about why closing schools is a bad idea is one piece that I don't think you'd have a lot to refute.

 

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/2011/02/closing_public_schools_a_truly.html

 

If you can't read that piece and at least nod a few times in silent contemplation, you've got to really think about what you're so defensive about.

 

My reply: This email provides real insight into your thinking and how vastly different our approaches and thinking are -- these lines in particular:  "It is the 'Death Penalty' of school reform and, like the actual death penalty, I am against it in all cases...Knowing that this is what will happen to the 22 schools...truly made me sick to my stomach.  I lost sleep about it, and I get sad every time I think about it."

 

I, too, oppose the death penalty, not on moral grounds, but because of the imperfect nature of our judicial system.  If even one innocent person was put to death, but 99 guilty murderers were executed, that would be too high of an error rate for me (and of course that actual error rate is massively higher).

 

So, then, why don't I apply the same thinking to closing schools?  Because what I care about is the kids -- and I don't blame them (or their parents) when they can't read properly by age 10 (or 12 or 14 or 16...) -- I blame the adults whose job it is to educate them.  I KNOW with 100% certainty, because I've seen it hundreds of times personally, that great teachers and great schools can teach virtually every child to at least a basic level -- maybe far from 90/90/90 (since when did that become the litmus test?), but to a decent level so that the vast majority of children have some chance in life.

 

I'd estimate that 25% of the schools in NYC -- roughly 400 schools -- are failing this basic test and should be shut down/reconstituted.  So, there you have it: of the approximately 1,600 public schools in NYC, you'd shut down/reconstitute ZERO and my number is 400 -- you could drive a truck through that gap!  Not all at once, of course -- it would take at least a decade, starting with the worst schools, the ones filled with mostly mediocre-to-truly-incompetent adults, where virtually no learning whatsoever is going on.  (I still don't understand your viewpoint, by the way: do you deny that such schools exist, or just that one can't identify them, or that even if you can, that the replacement is probably just as bad, so why cause any disruption -- just leave them alone?)

 

I'm sure you'll reply that closing such a large number of schools -- in fact, even a tiny fraction of this number -- will result in some schools being closed -- and some teachers and other adults losing their jobs -- unfairly.  In fact, this number -- the error rate -- might be quite high.  I agree -- in fact, it's probably one of the few things we'll ever agree on!  It's just that our reactions are different.  You feel "sick to your stomach, lose sleep and get sad thinking about" the injustice of a school being wrongfully closed down.  I don't.  I'm not happy about it, but my distress level is maybe a 5 out of 10, whereas yours appears to be a 9.5. 

 

Why am I less upset?  Because I don't think it's the end of the world if the adults have to find new jobs.  Since when are teachers the only working people in America who never have the risk that they work for a company or factory that has layoffs or gets shut down?  I'm sure there are lots of money-losing companies or factories that have wonderful, productive, effective people in them, and it's truly sad when those people lose their jobs due to the incompetence of management or their fellow employees, but that's the unfortunate breaks that some people get.  Not to minimize the trauma/disruption of anyone losing their job, especially due to no fault of their own, but almost all truly effective people are able to find another good job.  I know for sure that great teachers are in VERY high demand -- in fact, finding them is KIPP's single biggest constraint on its growth.  In summary, I'm not too worried about the adults whose lives are disrupted when a school is closed/reconstituted.

 

But what about the kids?  I'm more concerned about them, but they're the ones being victimized by the terrible schools -- it's like when you're on the bottom rung of a ladder, it's hard to get hurt if you fall off (or the ladder is pulled out from under you).  If the methodology to determine the schools to be closed has even the tiniest bit of common sense -- unlike you, I don't think it's the slightest bit difficult to identify the truly horrific bottom 5-10% of schools, as a starting point -- then it's almost certain that the vast majority of kids have nowhere to go but up.

 

This is another great debate that I hope you'll allow me to share your part of it with my email list...